I'm pro-choice, but not pro-lifestyle choice. I know all life on Earth evolves and adapts to its environment and changes in the environment cause the need for adaptation and over-coming ... or evolution. I just reckon it all started differently, and even that is an entire issue of its own. I'm considering the possibility the bible being vastly more metaphorical. I believe in separation of church and state. I believe there should be religious studies in schools, not religion in school. Kinda like how everyone does science. It's important to know about various cultures, is it not?. With all this you can see how I get shitty when some narrow minded hypocrite uses the words, "those Christians". That's offensive, so I can understand that most Muslims might just be offended at being lumped in the same hate filled basket that many use to describe, "those Muslims" when talking about the fundamental Sharia freaks who really do need no room to move in more 'enlightened' societies.
Should the more accepting muslims be condemned due to actions of a minority that have a twisted view of the same religion?. Do they not have a right to practice their religion?.
Is there a concerted effort by members of the Islamic community to use the basic fundamentals and political correctness of established democracies against those democracies themselves for insidious purposes?. Abso-fucken-lutely. It's a proven fact, but it's also a proven fact that people from other faiths do exactly the same thing. We should draw a line in the sand at a point where we are being asked to separate the state from the safety and place lives that DESERVE protection under that state in the hands of those that would stone people to death in street for falling in love. When our government is told to turn their backs on the safety of their own people, then fuck you Sharia fuckwit, pass me MY rifle.
From what the man in charge of the mosque 'at' 'Ground Zero' says that the mosque component is merely 10% of the entire project then you've got believe him.
We become the fundi freaks when we say people don't have a right to faith. They win, we lose.
Yeah, was an interesting show tonight. And interesting to see its not actually at g-zero, but a block or so away. Wonder how far back folks reckon it should be then- 2 blocks? 3?
ReplyDeleteAh well, at least Sarah Palin got to get her 2c in...
drej
here's the address if you want to see exact location:
ReplyDelete45 Park Place, New York, NY
it's very close if you consider it relative to the entire size of Manhattan. Close enough that they found plane's landing gear there and some body parts.
I think half a mile due west of ground Zero would be ideal.
Puma
I saw where it would be. Should they ban muslims from walking past it?. Should they be fined if they are spotted nearby laughing ... at anything. You never know, they might actually be celebrating the attack....
ReplyDeleteno, of course not. I just think it was in bad taste for them to want it there. And it is. Like many things muslims and other religious people do.
ReplyDeletepuma
apparently the grand opening is on the 10th anniversary. for crying out loud.
ReplyDeletepuma
A very cogent and well reasoned piece you have put forward. I'm an atheist and while the temptation is there to say something flippant about religion and faith but that would be churlish after your post above.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly that there are Muslims in America who while recognising the right of their fellow Muslims to build such a facility (as you point out the mosque is a small part of the over all structure, like the chapels located in hospitals) they are opposed to building such a structure where currently proposed.
Abdul Cader Asmal, past president of the Islamic Council of New England - "Winning in the court of law is not going to help improve the image of Muslims nationwide"
"I haven't been able to support the building of the mosque right there in the location they've got," said Nomani, author of "Standing Alone: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam," She likes the idea of the mosque in principle but believes the feelings of families who lost loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks should trump the plan.
Tawfik Hamid, an Egyptian scholar and reformer who said he was once a member of a terrorist group, said he had a "conditional objection" to the proposed Islamic centre as well.
I think that these are the Muslims who we should try to encourage as they will have more influence in the debate as to wether or not the mosque goes ahead.
The difficulty is that if you are going to respect property rights if someone builds on this property as long as they conform to local planning laws then unless you are prepared to discriminate on the basis of religion then as the planning authority you can not say no.
A very engaging post.
Thanks heaps for taking the time B. Much appreciated. It's such a multifaceted issue that you'd need a book to cover the entire topic, which, I guess, it has caused such a stink. It's interesting that the only interview I've seen so far with the bloke proposing it was from a single reporter doing her own camera work and reporting. Why not get ALL the information out there about exactly what this thing is all about and absolutely, get the muslim community involved from all branches and hear what they have to say.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing is that the vast majority of people against this building would, and are, dying for their country and the rights and freedoms their country's founding fathers nutted out and created the constitution. That constitution stands for ALL Americans, not just anglo ones. IF you're going to fight and die for those freedoms - as we've been told they are - then you're fighting and dying for EVERYONE'S freedoms, not just ones you've cherry picked.
And with your last point, that is exactly how Obama put it. They have that right.
Personally, I think the location is VERY confrontational. I wouldn't be surprised if the CAIR don't have something to do with it.
*do have something to do with it.
ReplyDeleteSo as I understand it
ReplyDelete(a) it's actually 4 or 5 blocks from what you'd call the ground zero part of the WTC domain
(b) it's not actually a mosque - it's a community centre, culinary school and basketball court with a prayer centre in the roof - basically a Muslim YMCA
(c) there's already been a mosque in operation, without any recorded issues, located closer to the WTC since before the WTC actually opened in 1970
(d) there's a mosque in the Pentagon - much closer to where a 9/11 plane actually landed
(e) noone else was prepared to actually invest in the property and develop it because of the landing gear through the roof kind of thing
(f) it specifically says in the US constitution the gummint ain't permitted to fuck with people's rights to exercise their religion
... etc etc etc. I understand why people have a reaction about this, but most of it is misinformed.
Bout sums it Doc.
ReplyDeleteIt's two blocks from the WTC. It was the closest they could get. The WTC and two blocks area surrounding it is less than 1% of Manhattan Island. Wonder why they're so insistent on building there.
ReplyDeleteThe Cordoba Initiative only has 10 mil of assets and the Center will cost 100 mil. I suppose the rest will come from the Saudis or who knows.
The place in the pentagon is interfaith.
In reference to 911, the Imam said "America was an accessory to the crime that happened"
Puma
A little bit of research on your part might answer those questions.
ReplyDeleteDone it. Most of the answers seem to come from the Imam. Did you have something else? or should I just take his word at face value?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of his 911 comment Moko? Sort of sounds like Ward Churchill calling the victims little Eichmanns dontcha think?
Puma
I think you need to read your constitution. Obama covered it. He only stated facts, but your mates, blew those facts into something resembling an opinion. Your constitution guarantees freedom of religion. Can't believe I'm trying to convince an American about the contents of the Seppo Constitution.
ReplyDeleteWhat do I think of what this Imam said?. Do you even know why 9/11 happened?. Why it really happened, and not why your right are telling you why it happened. Chances are we can't talk about that objectively though...
Personally, America - and us - need to own up to various aspects of our historical foreign policies. Does that excuse or justify 9/11?. No of course not, but it gives it reason. We aren't innocent halo wearing angels of justice and peace mate, we are sticky beak fucken war mongers. And really, we can't justify our actions in the past, only give them reason as well.
*checks what he wrote* Nope. Nothing in there about me wanting to change our constitution. Just think it's a bad idea. BTW, I'm a democrat who voted for Obama. Strikes 1,2, and 3.
ReplyDelete"Do you even know why 9/11 happened?"
Last we heard from Osama, he blamed Israel. Conflicted much? LOL
Seriously, you blaming me and America? We only go back 200 or so years...Christianity on the other hand...hoo boy...
-Puma
and you never gave me your links to answer my questions. :-)
ReplyDeletePuma
Puma. I'll say this again because you're clearly incredibly slow on the uptake. THERE IS ALREADY A MOSQUE CLOSER TO GROUND ZERO THAN THIS. TAKE YOUR PILLS SON.
ReplyDeleteKeith Olbermann - who's often a twat, and IMO was better on Sportscenter before he went into political punditry - actually got it spot on with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dXFo0UUACM
Puma. Random mate. No idea what the fuck you're on about.
ReplyDeleteChange the constitution?. Huh?.
Conflicted much?. Read his Letter To America. That might help.
Blaming you and America?. Uh, no. Sorry that was over your head.
Christianity?. Wow, original piece of trolling that.
Okay, mosque bad. Let's just leave it at that.
Had to laugh at Olbermann's point about why we're actually in Iraq. IT's was to give muslims freedom from the tyranny of Hussein. So true.
ReplyDelete"I think you need to read your constitution."
ReplyDeletethat's what you said...I'm not against freedom of religion but just because something is legal doesn't make it right and I can voice my opposition.
You go on and on defending Israel over the flotilla incident and other crap but imply that America deserved 911. Biggest fucking hypocrite I ever met on the net.
Yobbo, really? What's the address? Here's the only one I can find and it's 5 blocks away.
http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/
I'd attempt to explain to you the difference between a small, pre-existing organization 5 blocks away and a new 13 story structure 700 feets away, but if you're too stupid to even read a map, then I'd be wasting my time.
"THERE IS ALREADY A MOSQUE CLOSER TO GROUND ZERO THAN THIS. TAKE YOUR PILLS SON."
Duh! LOL
Puma
Yeah, I didn't say America deserved it. This is what I meant when I used the word 'objectively'. Instead of skim reading, take the time to comprehend what I'm trying to say.
ReplyDeleteHypocrite?. Now we're abusing each other?. I didn't defend the flotilla, I looked at it objectively. A concept you're obviously incapable of. You, and few others...
...and I go on and on about it?. I can write whatever the fuck I like in here champ. You could too up until now. Add to the topic or I'll delete it.
ReplyDeleteSorry Moko. Honestly. I mean that. Hard to believe, but I really don't like this sort of thing. That being said, this issue has *what* to do with Kiwis or Aussies? I don't blame you when you bitch about your countries being dragged into some futile conflict in Iraq or Afghanistan because of some outdated allegiance, but you have no business sticking your nose into this anymore than me commenting on a KFC commercial (mea culpa). Remember that? "Seppos fuck off" or something like that?
ReplyDeleteI think you'd be better off addressing your own host countries issues with muslims than commenting on ours. Or less quickly condemn the opinions of people who grew up in the shadows of the towers.
Peace
Puma
Well, no. Dredging in hope of floaty bits surfacing that resemble some sort of hypocrisy doesn't count. That 'KFC' thing was cultural thing where you guys transferred your racial stereotypes on to another culture where they don't exist and condemned a nation for mainstream overt racism. 'Chicken' - I still don't get it - doesn't have racial undertones here.
ReplyDeleteTHIS topic is a topic that WE ARE ALL going through right now. Right now we are debating this very thing in our society as well with the "Ban the Burqa" brigade. Ridiculous shots at asylum seekers arriving by boats who apparently all have bombs strapped to their torso's. Funnily enough, we created those asylum seekers. Big mouth Imams who ARE verbal in their stand against our society, but live on the government dollar through religious tax exemption.
Once again you've missed the ENTIRE point of this topic IN MY BLOG that I'm completely fucking entitled to comment on. If you don't like me talking about it, don't come here. The topic is that we can't tell the difference between the muslim's we are at war with, and the ones we went to Afghanistan and Iraq to save.
So no, fuck you. I'll keep on voicing my disapproval at the victimisation of people as long as I can. Once again, in agreement with your President, there is nothing illegal about the proposal of the Islamic community center in the location they choose, and taking away their right to construct whatever the fuck they wish there based solely on their religion is a crime. It's a crime against your constitution, it's a moral crime, and it's a crime against the memory of YOUR soldiers that went to Iraq and Afghanistan and died for those very muslim's freedom. Isn't why they went?.
You know we're standing beside America in Iraq and Afghanistan because of 9/11 too eh?. You're aware of this?.
The Muslims have the 'right' to build their mosque/community center there, no doubt. But is it the 'right' thing to do?
ReplyDeleteSeems like whenever we go to a Muslim country, there are things we can't do so as not to offend their 'sensibilities'. Which is fair-their house, their rules.
What about the 'sensibilities' of more than a few people in this country? I don't think it's the 'right' thing to do-not now, and not there. NYC doesn't lack for mosques. Call it patriotic chauvinism or whatever-I don't think it needs to be there.
Perhaps it's not a good comparison, but I think an equivalent would be waving a Turkish flag at an Anzac Day celebration. I suspect I'd have the 'right' to do so. But it isn't appropriate. And someone would pummel me, most likely.
If it were Jewish extremists that carried out 9/11, I'd tell the local rabbi 'no synagogue'. I'm an equal opportunity hater, perhaps.
Hey yankeedog I know it's off topic but there is actually a Turkish flag flown at Gallipoli as well as at Anzac celebrations here in NZ (and I hear there was one flown in Brisbane this year). I think it's in recognition of Gallipoli as a shared place, as ANZAC day as a shared experience. The Turks lost nearly 90,000 troops there too. Let's also not forget that there were nearly 300 innocent muslim New Yorkers who died on 9/11 despite the propaganda to the contrary.
ReplyDelete